Forum:Stormholder and Woodcutter
In Paris On Castle Wulfenbach they knew each other as Tarvek Sturmvoraus and Gilgemesh Holzfäller respectively. They frequented the same nightspots. Knew each other on a first name basis. They both had dealings with Zola. Each formed strong opinions about the other. Evidence of a keen rivalry. You would think from those opinions that each would want nothing to do with the other. Yet when Tarvek is in resplendent trouble, Gil swears he will get him out of it. Offering himself up to the risk of a SVV procedure and provoking Agatha in to acts of mad, weird and downright kinky science. Where did that come from? From their time in Paris what aspect of their relationship would spark that kind of altruism? How did Tarvek make Gil's life tough in Paris? What did Gil do to return the favor? In Gil's numerous adventures, were there times that Tarvek lent key assistance? What about Tarvek's adventures? When Gil and Tarvek meet in the castle, Gil knows who Tarvek is just from the mention of his first name. Tarvek knows Gil from the tone of his voice, yet he calls him by his alias. He claimed to Agatha he had never met Gilgamesh Wulfenbach. Has Gil deceived Tarvek up to now? Has Tarvek succeeded in deceiving us, even now? What was the nature of their relationship when they knew each other as Stormholder and Woodcutter? What do you think? ---- I'd guess that Gil's reaction is two parts "hero boy mode," one part "this will make Agatha happy and possibly like me better," one part "OooooOOHHHhh SCIENCE," and one part revenge of the Godfather "one day, and this day may never come..." kind. I'd also guess that he really didn't have any interaction with Tarvek past their rivalry (and Tarvek walking in on him in awkward, easily misunderstandable situations), since Tarvek doesn't seem to think him capable of anything remotely sparky. We don't know how long Gil's been hiding his spark, so it could have continued in Paris to some degree. After all, as Sleipnir has shown us, one can be brilliant and insane without being sparky. Anyway, I'd attribute most of this to hero boy mode though, considering the fact that he's gone out of his way to save the Goldfish before. Not to mention Zola. And then there was the "I'll destroy all of these big scary monster clanks so they never hurt anyone ever again" thing. Oh, and Adam and Lilith. And I'm pretty sure that somewhere along the way he's probably rescued a kitten from a tree and helped an old lady cross the street and earned his Citizenship merit badge while saving a bunch of orphans from a fire. Because that's just how his brain seems to function, possibly from the Heterodyne Boys books having rotted it. As long as he sees Tarvek as an annoying jerk from school and not an evil conspirator, he'll keep on saving him at personal inconvenience whenever possible. Shame, really. P.S. Your German needs work ^_^ -- Elle : Okay. I drew Tarvek's handle from the name of the town rather than his last name. As a storyteller I am partial to the sound of words. As to the other stuff, you could be right. Gil could be such a good guy that saving even Tarvek is something he would instinctively do or do just to please (and show off to) Agatha. Yet he puts himself a quite a serious risk. I would like to think him sane enough to have figured in an commensurate payoff if he succeeds. Also my observations are of hints of a complex relationship. As a curious storyteller, I am wondering after those. I want to here Gil's Paris stories. Preferably from a bunch of different first hand sources. --Rej ¤¤? 07:48, September 8, 2009 (UTC) ::P.S. I've really liked the thoughtfulness of your contributions. -Rej :::There, I've made an account, though I would be willing to bet that I'll forget the password by tomorrow, and this would all have been for naught. :::I don't really think there's a relationship there based solely on the payoff, because what's the payoff? Tarvek lives? Have we met anyone in the comic who doesn't want to beat him with something? He just doesn't seem very endearing, and we've also got Agatha allowing this procedure *and* being super-concerned about Tarvek's life. Heck, her telling Gil that she couldn't handle anymore friends dying seems to suggest that she even possibly considers Tarvek a friend. And from what we've seen of their brief history together, well, has *she* got any real reason to save him? She says that she likes him, but *why*? He hasn't done anything likable. He's sabotaged her and betrayed her and is involved with the folks trying to take over her town. Yet she still sort of likes him? He's got friend status? Doesn't make very much sense. Ignoring the obvious explanation for this, I'd say Agatha is also a carrier of a "I'm going to go get myself killed saving people" gene. And while she probably hasn't had the time to earn her Gold Award yet (after all, Gil's got a few years of recklessly throwing himself into danger on her), she's getting there. Oh, and it's not like this is the first time Gil's done with the . Granted, the consequences were not as high, and he had an arguably much better chance of surviving, and the payout would have definitely been more worth it, but . And as for story-telling, well, it all depends on what you're trying to establish...--Elle :::: Tarvek has many flaws, but he did on a Fun-MADD recently, risking his life for hers. Argadi 14:15, September 8, 2009 (UTC) :::::He also did try to get Agatha out of his castle before she was shoved in the machine. Maybe. One can't really tell with the quadruple and quintuple crossing going on. But all of his actions are linked with self-preservation. That is, if he didn't try to save Agatha, he'd wind up dead himself, what with the Castle out to kill him, and the Baron's men out to kill him outside the castle, and a possible soft-hearted ally who could get rid of the problem and possibly be convinced to marry him in the future *and* provide him with a good position from which to conquer Europe, should he have to switch to plan B, or is that C or D? So his "heroism" is still highly questionable, at best, as he's yet to do anything anything that doesn't clearly lead to his own benefit. --Elle :::::: Yes, Tarvek's ride on the Devil Dog is similar to Yeltsin's ride on a tank; heroism but the only way to survive. However, from Agatha's point of view it is a reason to consider him a friend (Tarvek, not Yeltsin). Argadi 15:14, September 8, 2009 (UTC) ::::::: Yeltsin always struck me as more likable. I think Agatha is, by now, savvy enough to realize how things work with Tarvek. That he may genuinely like her but won't hesitate in selling her out the moment it would benefit his interests. She herself admits to not trusting him, despite liking him. Which I why I question the whole friendship thing. If she can't/won't trust him, as she herself admits, what is the friendship based on? He's sort of cute and might occasionally do something that could help her out, but only when it's to his own advantage and the positive outcomes for other people are mostly side effects? That he's a , you know, once you ignore the fact that he currently has technicolor dream skin and his plotting and scheming and potential lack of a moral compass and the fact that he may or may not be n league with Lucrezia? That he's got von Rijn's notes and may be willing to share them in the future, we think? Something just doesn't mesh here. From a plot point of view, it makes perfect sense to keep him around. After all, he's the only one who knows about Lunevka. And he helps keep the UST going (and going and going). And he may turn on them later for extra pathos. But from a practical perspective? Neither Agatha nor Gil really have much of a reason, past even more strongly establishing themselves as The Good Guys™, for keeping him around. And heck, they could probably earn more brownie points for saving a carriage-full of nuns from certain death or delivering puppies or performing a life-saving spleen transplant with nothing more than some chewing gum and a shoe lace or something. -- Elle :::::::: Think of Frodo and Golum. --Rej :::::::: Tarvek is an important character for several valid reasons. He is the descendant of the storm king. He has convinced Tinka and Moxana of that. He also is a strong spark, He knows the others technology better than than anyone. He is clever. He serves the Heterodyne by keeping her other lover extremely jealous. He also acts as a spare. His acts are a mystery. Sure he thinks he should be grand ruler of everything. Plus he has to scheme and plot overtime just to stay alive. His alliances are very fleeting but sometimes very helpful. :::::::: His true loyalties have not been revealed yet. I am still guessing about him. Hero or villain? Ultimately likable or not? He is not a good or as likable as Gil. I root whole heartedly for the son of Wulfenbach. He's not as unlikable a Zola. She wears her self centered egotism on her cuff and she is stupid about it. Tarvek's intelligence makes him palatable. His lack of luck makes him sympathetic. (His current condition makes him pallette-able too,) --Rej ¤¤? 17:41, September 8, 2009 (UTC) :::::::: :::::::::I agree with you that Tarvek is an important character, but when we stop looking at him from a reader context of "here's why he's useful to us and to the story" and look at him from the context of Gil and Agatha working to revive him, none of that is really there. We just get a big question mark. :::::::::As for your other points, well on the Other's technology, I'd argue with that. Klaus spent the past 18 or so years tinkering with it, so I'd probably throw that title his way. He seemed to know the technology well enough to connect it to Lucrezia before there was any proof of that. We also don't really know how Tinka and Moxana work and to what extent they're sentient, so how much of the convincing was free will and how much of it was pre-programmed loyalty (since clanks and constructs seem to listen to their creators/anyone their creator deems their boss). I'd also say that Zola is extremely more likable than Tarvek. (Or, at least, I find her to be.) Despite whatever games she's playing, she has clear loyalties. She had absolutely nothing to gain when she begged Agatha not to hurt Gil, but she did it anyway. Sure, she's sneaky, manipulative, possibly self-centered and stupid (how much of that is an act?), and definitely willing to kill people to meet her goals, but she's also not very likely to suddenly decide go "Hey, Gil's not helping me anymore, I might as well throw him to the wolves" like Tarvek might, and has, with Agatha. She's not a particularly good person by any stretch of the imagination, but she clearly has some sort of line between "friend" and "expendable political pawn" which Tarvek seems to lack. -- Elle ::::::::::Back to the left margin. I am still trying to decide if Tarvek can learn how to treat "friends" and not think of them as another class of expendable pawn. He seems to have some feelings and some empathy. Just not much backbone or loyalty. Then again Tarvek is much about "seems", so I expect to find surprises. I agree that Klaus may know more about the Others technique. Tarvek does get to use her tools, at least in [http://twitter.com/Othar?max_id=3056298436&page=1&twttr=true ] What Klaus really knew better than Tarvek was Lucrezia. --Rej ¤¤? 00:37, September 9, 2009 (UTC) The Snake and Weasel, Portland, Oregon. Acoustic concert hall which housed a small brewery. Reportedly Closed.http://www.nwbrewpage.com/orbpubs/SnakeWeas.htmlIn altercations weasels are generally favored to get the better of snakes. They were intimate friends even before Paris on Castle Wulfenbach. Better, it was Gil who got Tarvek into trouble! Ah. This is very satisfying. Can't wait for Monday's revelations. --Rej :Or so we are told by someone whose relationship with the truth is strained at best. :P --Elle 05:13, September 11, 2009 (UTC) :: As Mark Twain once said. "If you keep telling the truth, eventually you'll be found out." --Rej 22:08, September 11, 2009 (UTC) I am very late coming to this discussion so maybe I'm getting a distorted view of it with the benefit of eight years' more comics than existed when y'all started. Certainly it is now clear that Gil and Tarvek love deeply. I've always seen the vocal antagonism between them as basically equivalent to "How do you sleep?": the expression of an abiding love temporarily turned into fierce anger after a felt betrayal. And I think that antagonism has toned down since they finally had a of its roots. Now it's more like college roommates playing (often pretty nasty) tricks on each other and enjoying it. I'm a fan of Tarvek, despite , which I wish I understood! But otherwise, as Tarvek explains to Gil, he suffers from having been brought up in his family, despite which he mostly behaves quite well. Gil that he can't equivocate about which side he's on. (This is the scene in which he starts saying that being wasped shouldn't happen to Agatha and then midsentence changes to "It shouldn't happen to... well... to anybody." So I'm betting that Tarvek will become a better and better character as time goes on. In the long run I can even imagine Gil-and-Tarvek as the latter-day Heterodyne Boys. (Yeah, I know, time travel scenes. I can dream, can't I?) As to which of them gets the girl, I suppose you're all right that Gil is the obvious candidate, despite Violetta's argument to the contrary. But I keep being emboldened by how everyone (in-comic) keeps talking about how Heterodynes don't follow any rules; maybe Agatha will find a way to keep both of them. Or, worst case, Tarvek will end up sacrificing his own life to protect Gil and Agatha, before she has to make a choice and reject him. Or Agatha will follow Zeetha to Skifander and the boys will go off adventuring together. ☺ Bkharvey (talk) 07:16, August 18, 2017 (UTC) Have you no shame "[http://girlgeniuscomic.livejournal.com/107362.html Have you no shame?]" --Tarvek Gil and Tarvek have been through a lot. Tarvek literally owes Gil his (revived) life. They got past differences out of the way in a energetic fight under difficult circimstanses. When finally the SVV was over they exchanged left handed compliments that were more like right handed insults. In other words each showed the other grudging respect before setting out to relive steam in a tussle which Agatha eventually joined in. So now what remains is the matter of Agatha's courtship and a final settling of alpha role among the two. Those matters are not really in question. In the story Agatha has primarily been Gil's since the beginning. Tarvek's delusions of a perfect future not withstanding. Here in the above quote Tarvek is essentially acknowledging Gil's primacy. They are friends first. The rivalry all but settled. --Rej ¤¤? 22:32, May 15, 2010 (UTC) : Only for now. --Tarvek 22:32, May 15, 2010 (UTC) Legitimacy and its loss Members of the nobility who are reanimated forfeit their right to their title... we found this out when the Baron reanimated the Princess who faced down von Pinn and was skewered by Bang Dupree. Tarvek has just been reanimated, and all his schemes are based on his being the MOST LEGITIMATE candidate to rule Europa if the Baron is taken out. Stormvorous Heir. Descendant of the Storm King. Husband to the Girl Heterodyne, either Lola or Agatha. Gil and Agatha were revived as well... but they Wulfenbachs don't play by those rules, and I suspect Heterodynes don't even recognize that ANY rules apply to themselves. Anyway, both of them have real power, unlike Tarvek... and there were FAR to many witnesses around to hope everyone keeps quiet.--Schmott Guy(?) 03:00, May 16, 2010 (UTC) : Fairytales have power in politics. The Storm King legend and its fulfillment are prominent McGuffins in this story. Who turns out to accepted to be his heir will be important. The Foglio's have not been subtle about this. : It could be Tarvek if word of the SVV is kept secret. Pinky will probably use this as leverage. : It could be Gil. He called down the lightning. Plus he was the one participant in the SVV who was NOT dead even for an instant. He just felt he was about to. Agatha yelled him out of that. : It could be Moloch. He has been in the story since before even Gil. He has hidden qualities. He certainly meets the criteria of being hard to kill. His name could be a hidden clue. He is definitely not a spark. The storm king wasn't either. He has a basicly desent nature plus a great deal of common sense. It would be funny if it turned out to be him. Which is the best reason for such a surprise. --Rej ¤¤? 20:49, May 16, 2010 (UTC) The Storm King defeated the Heterodyne of the day, along with Ogglespoon, plus he commanded the loyalty of Van Rjin, so I'm guessing he was as sparky as they come. Moloch is a minion; his highest ambition is survival; I can't see him as the Overlord of Europa. : Moloch is more than a minion. He's said so him self. He has a prominent and yet unexplained place in the story. Beginning, middle, and future, when we see Gil and Agatha we see him also. Something special is planned for him. Just not enough information yet to say what. --Rej There are too many people around for Tarvek to keep his reanimation a secret. Who all is down in the basement, now? Agatha, Gil, Tarvek, Krosp, Otilla, Zeetha, Snaug, Violotta, Higgs, Tiktoffen, Moloch, and the spider-legged guy? Half of Europa knows already! My money is on Gil, if anyone.--Schmott Guy(?) 04:09, May 17, 2010 (UTC) : With a moniker like that I would expect no less. --Rej ¤¤? 07:19, May 17, 2010 (UTC)